Busy... and Moron Carpenterism

12/14/06 - 5th Day - After Breakfast. I haven't posted in a few days because we have been very, very busy here. Danielle and the children went to the old house in Smyer to pack up some things and help get it ready for my dad to work on it to try to sell it. So for the first few days it was just me and the fellas here. Then Mark went to San Antonio to visit a friend and it was just Mihai and I here to do all the work until yesterday around noon when Chris from Illinois (who is moving down) arrived. So a good part of the day yesterday was spent showing Chris around, then we had to go to Coleman to get supplies - all the while the domestic duties aren't getting done because Danielle and the children are gone. So we got back and got to work on supper and cleaning and some house chores.

All the while, I have been engaged in a roaring controversy with the "Carpenterites" and with Carpenterism . It takes of HOURS of time to try to engage in any meaningful discussion with a Carpenterite... for example, here are some actual quotes from one of the Carpenterites:

Yesterday, the Carpenterite said:

"u have moved away from discussing the atonement and lied and said i believed a person believes the gospel and then after that becomes regenerated - i checked my e-mails- i never said that.i would NEVER say or believe that."

So, this guy believes it is a lie to say that he believes that someone is regenerated after they believe the gospel. Ok, clear enough, so I produced this quote from the same guy from his first post on my website (the post that got him banned):

"The true believer is saved AFTER he hears the true gospel."

So, you would think that the guy would either a) deny that he ever said that, or b) deny that I lied in saying that that is what he believes. Right? NOOOOO... not when dealing with a Carpenterite:

"yes it's my mistake that allowed you to do this, i admit it... because i should have put when instead of after may allow u to lie and decieve people"

Sooo... telling people what he said is lying and deceiving people! My using his words to prove that he is not telling the truth is ME lying!

So, he says that he said "after" on accident, and that he really didn't mean that. In the mean time he says he MEANT to say "when" and not "after". However, the word "When" used in that sentence, still means "After"! Time doesn't freeze on the account of the Carpenterites. If I say, "When the phone rings, I will answer it", it means "after I hear the phone ring, I will answer it." If the Carpenterite says, "True believers are regenerated WHEN they hear the Gospel", then logically it can only mean "AFTER" they hear the Gospel. Think of it - maybe you have heard of Pavlov's dogs. Pavlov trained dogs that they would be fed WHEN they hear a bell ring. Pavlov learned that the dogs could be conditioned to begin salivating WHEN they hear a bell ring (because they associate the bell ringing to getting fed). So if a dog salivates WHEN he hears a bell ring, doesn't the bell ring first? Doesn't the dog salivate AFTER he hears the bell ring?

Point #2 - Even if this Carpenterite meant "When" instead of "After", it still means AFTER. But did he really mean "When"? Notice the emphasis placed by him when I give you the context of the sentence:

WHEN does one become saved?

Ephesians 1:13
"AFTER that ye heard the word of truth, the GOSPEL of your salvation: in Whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise"

The true believer is saved AFTER he hears the true gospel.

The Carpenterite really meant "AFTER", or he wouldn't have underlined it twice in his proof text. But he accuses me of "lying" and "slander" for stating that he believes that the true believer is regenerated after he hears the true gospel.

So that is what I have been dealing with, and it is why I wrote my first little article about Carpenterism, and why I predicted:

Michael Bunker on December 8th:

"Now, you must understand that any attempt to define Carpenterism will fail (to Carpenterites), because Marc Carpenter and his 20 or so adherents ARE Carpenterism, and they refuse to be defined. Talking to them is like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall."

Here is what I said on the 11th:

The biggest problem is the one I originally talked about in the Q&A. Talking with a Carpenterite is like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall. Deny, deny, redefine, twist, countercharge, etc. This is the playbook of Marc Carpenter and his ilk. You may not refute him or challenge him unless you are willing to only use his words and only use the words according to his definitions.

Now we find out that I was wrong. I said that you may only refute him if you are willing to use his words and only his words. Now we find out that you can't even use his words! If you use his words you are a liar and a slanderer!

So, I apologize for being absent. I have had my hands full.

Here at the ranch things are about to get busy. We will have a bunch of folks here this weekend, and our numbers at the ranch are increasing. So I ask you all to pray for me.

Michael Bunker